Conference date and time: October 1, 2021 (Friday) 19:00-21:00

Meeting location: Online video conference

Sponsor: Taiwan-Hong Kong International Research Center, National Sun Yat-sen University

 

Posted by:

Li Weiting, Ph.D., Department of Chinese Language and Literature, The Chinese University of Hong Kong

Xing Ying, Translator of "The Story of Aesop: The Donkey"

Lorraine, literary critic

Leung Pak-kin, Lyricist

Deng Xiaohua, Hong Kong Literary Life Museum

Guan Yuxing, "Echo"

(ranked by stroke)

 

host:

Kong Dewei, Researcher, Center for Taiwan-Hong Kong International Studies

 

Minutes Volunteer:

Pony (verbatim)

Liang Wuxin (verbatim draft)

Liang Jiaxuan (verbatim draft)

Edmund Chau (Chinese translation)

​

Kong Dewei: Or let me ask the presenter a question first: The "Cantonese literature" currently being discussed actually has various aspects, one of which is the creation of "Cantonese lyrics" that has been widely circulated in the early days. Mr. Leung (Pakin) can be regarded as an expert in this area. From your point of view, can you share the differences between Cantonese lyrics and other languages in terms of application? Or in the creative process, what are the characteristics of Cantonese?
 

Leung Pak-kin: First of all, I have to explain that I know Cantonese, mainly Cantonese, and I also understand English and not so good Mandarin. As far as these three languages are concerned, I also pay attention to the lyrics in English or Mandarin (Mandarin). The biggest difference between them and Cantonese is that it is more difficult to rhyme and turn rhyme in Cantonese. Because Cantonese is a relatively old language with a history of thousands of years or even longer, the language itself has been changing with the times. The rhyme used in Cantonese is actually more like the "medieval sound". As for the format of "Middle Ancient Tones", you may have heard that Cantonese has nine tones, and it is much more difficult technically to rhyme from the nine tones. For example, English songs also have rhymes, but the rhyme can be changed suddenly; or the same lyrics can be sung in different scales. There is a similar situation in Putonghua, because Putonghua only has four tones, so there are more characters that can be used. If you want to insist on rhyming, Cantonese itself is more difficult and constrained.

 

Condevi: I would like to ask "do not stick to the rhyme" mean to sing like a hymn, to sing like "the Lord is able"? Is this "don't insist on rhyming"?

 

Leung Pak-kin: "The Lord Can" is because the intonation is wrong, and the rhyme refers to the last rhyme, which corresponds to the last rhyme of each line of the lyrics.

Kong Dewei: So you will think that because you are a native speaker of Cantonese, you can only do it if you have a certain feeling for music, or even a native speaker of Cantonese needs some training or learning. Meet the requirements of the creative form of lyrics?


Leung Pak-kin: It requires training or self-study, because it takes a considerable period of training to make every sound in line with Cantonese intonation. For example, the youngest lyricist in Hong Kong should be Lin Xi, who is about 20 years old. In fact, he is quite talented. When he was young, he had already tried to write a lot of works before he mastered intonation, rhyme, song theme and composition. to become a professional lyricist. To achieve such an achievement, I think it should take almost ten years.

 

Condewei: Do you think the above situation is also true for lyrics in other languages?

 

Pakkin Leung: It is relatively easy to fill in lyrics in other languages such as English. Take the nursery rhyme "Let it go" as an example: a sentence in English (Let it go) can appear on different scales, but Cantonese will be limited. Suppose you replace "Let it go" with "In fact me". The second line of the song, the second line "Let it go" will become "Qiseke" (Note 1), which is already awkward and will become inaccurate. But in the example of "Let it go", one sentence can be repeated twice to become two lyrics (*even if the scale is different), Cantonese is relatively troublesome, and Mandarin is actually similar to English. Moreover, in terms of Cantonese lyrics, the audience will be able to hear the obtrusive pronunciation. Once the obtrusive pronunciation appears, they will think that this is a failed work.

 

Condewei: Understood, the lyrics part will come here first. We will have a discussion session in the last hour, which can be left for later. Next, I would like to invite the next publisher to make more people in Hong Kong or other places aware of the issue of "Cantonese literature" -- the editor of "Echo", Mr. Guan Yuxing. Mr. Guan, the editors of the "Echo" magazine, or the series of discussions caused by it, have always lacked a good occasion for you to share what "Cantonese literature" is in your heart.

Guan Yuxing: In fact ("Cantonese literature" in my mind) does not have a fixed shape. We will not describe the shape and appearance of "Cantonese" in a standardized way. Taking myself as an example, I founded "Echo" magazine to give everyone a space and a platform, and the more imaginations the better. The more different creations you have, the more different looks, the weirder and more experimental you are, this is very important for the health of the language. I think "language" is an imagination, and each imagination tells a story, a different thing. If the language can carry more different ideas and stories, the more the language is used, the more developed and healthy it will be.

 

Conteville: Do you think this kind of imagination or experiment is different from what happened before? Can it be regarded as a change, or follow a Cantonese writing tradition, and it can even be said that Canton already had (this tradition) in the seventeenth century?

 

Guan Yuxing: In fact, Cantonese is a relatively new thing in Hong Kong. It must be known that in the 1950s and 1960s, Cantonese was not the mainstream in Hong Kong. (At that time) Hong Kong was still a place with mixed dialects. The melting pot of languages. At that time, Hong Kong was an immigrant society. Because the colonial government wanted to deal with language issues, the "Cantonese Movement" was launched. So is Hong Kong a place where the history of Cantonese is inherited? Not necessarily. So does this mean that Hong Kong cannot become a place of inheritance? Absolutely not. Because Hong Kong is now a place where Cantonese is the main language, this alone is enough. I myself will not place too much emphasis on capturing the orthodoxy in a Chinese cultural concept from historical inheritance. I don't think a creation or an experiment needs this kind of baggage.

 

Kong Dewei: "There is no need to mention orthodoxy" and "innovative experimentation" are actually two different things. Do you think "Echo" is innovative, or do you do any experiments?

 

Kwan Yu-sing: If the publications are written in pure Cantonese, I think it is definitely not a new thing. This is the case with "Next Magazine" and "Horse Classic". I think we are... I saw a message on "Landen" before and thought it was great. He said: "Ah, I picked up "Echo" for the first time and felt like "Landen" was printed on paper." First Regardless of whether he praises or criticizes, and does not comment on his intentions, I think that printing the imagination of Cantonese in this era on paper is our small contribution to this language.

 

Kong Dewei: Understand, so you think "Echo" is an experiment in Cantonese literature, and it is also an attempt to (help) the healthy development of the language?

 

Guan Yuxing: Yes, the reason why language declines is not because no one speaks it anymore, or more people speak other languages, but because you no longer use it to write new words and new ideas. Just like Latin, there are still people who understand, use, and speak, but there are no new works, and no one has Latin to ask if you have eaten. Latin is a language that has stopped evolving and has stopped having new changes.

 

Conteville: I understand. We have mentioned "dead languages" in this section. The next person to post is a friend who has just translated an ancient Greek novel into Cantonese. Then we will ask him to share how he views "dead languages" and where they can meet with Cantonese. His pen name is "Xing Ying".

 

Xing Ying: Hello everyone.

 

Kong Dewei: As we discussed just now, Teacher Kwan believes that Cantonese is still a vibrant language. As for some "dead languages", the teacher used "Latin" as an example. Since you just mentioned that you translated ancient Greek novels into Cantonese, Then I would also like to hear your thoughts on how you came up with this translation. I have also seen your works, and many parts of them are very vivid. If I describe them in Cantonese, you make the characters very "cheap". Could you please share this part with us?

 

Xing Ying: All right. However, I would like to explain that Latin is not a "dead language". Some people still use it today, and some radio stations use Latin as the broadcast language, but this is just a small addition. I originally chose to translate ancient Greek because of a very practical consideration: I wanted to publish a book, and I wanted to translate it, but copyright issues prevented many works from being translated. Then, the people who used ancient Greek had disappeared two thousand years ago, and the limited period of copyright of the book had already expired, so ancient Greek works were selected for translation.

 

Condewi: Understood. So when you are in the translation process, when you need to deal with your mother tongue and a language that has not been used for many years... Because I know you have other translation works, how is this translation work different from others?

 

Xing Ying: I would say that ancient Greek is actually just a language. Although it is a language that has been extinct for two thousand years, works written in ancient Greek still have a certain vitality. I chose this article to translate, the goal is actually to choose some vivid and ghostly ones. First of all, when I chose Cantonese as the translation language, of course there will be many more serious topics in ancient Greek works. For example, when people say Plato, philosophical works are of course written in ancient Greek. If we use Cantonese to translate Plato's works, the effect will certainly not be good enough. I think the difference from the written language is limited, so I tend to choose some novels that are lighter and have more dialogues among ancient Greek works. The reason for choosing more dialogues is because it can highlight the characteristics of Cantonese.

 

Kong Dewei: If you say it like this, does it feel a bit like that, do you think that Cantonese itself is suitable for the market or life, and there are restrictions on expressing some serious ideas? Especially the part written in Cantonese.

 

Xing Ying: Maybe it should be reversed. This is not a restriction. My opinion is that translating some more life-like themes in Cantonese can better highlight the characteristics of Cantonese. In fact, I have selfish intentions. I don’t just want to introduce ancient Greek culture to Hong Kong people by translating this book; I also want to try to use Cantonese—as Mr. Kwan said—to enrich Cantonese literary creation. At the stage where we are still exploring, I want to try my best to use an article and genre that can best highlight the characteristics of Cantonese to translate. It's not that translating philosophy or history books in Cantonese will be more difficult, and I don't see such a situation for the time being.

 

Kong Dewei: As you said just now, "Cantonese" has its own characteristics. Can you explain more clearly what are the characteristics?

 

Xing Ying: This feature means that when we read the dialogue in it, the feeling will be more obvious. For example, as Mr. Guan said just now, some of my friends feel that when they read my book, it seems that I am telling the story in his ear, and even the characters in it seem to be telling it in his ear. This is actually what I think is the advantage of Cantonese in translation, especially when the readers are from Hong Kong.

 

Condewi: Understood. Because this is our mother tongue, it is like the "Vaihua Movement" during the May Fourth Movement, saying "I write my heart by hand", which is considered a matter of intimacy. If this is the case, will you think of "because this is your mother tongue" in the process, so you will be very kind? For example, I know a teacher who has learned Cantonese for many years. Because he is Swiss, Cantonese is not his mother tongue, and there has always been a layer of separation. So can we look at it backwards, if our mother tongue is another language, we will feel that that language is actually the same as Cantonese, and it also has the "characteristics" you mentioned?

 

Xing Ying: Yes, yes. What I mean by characteristics is not that Cantonese is superior to written Chinese or English, but the benefits of translating from Cantonese for Hong Kong people.

 

Condewi: Understood. So that "characteristic" is tied to the identity of Hong Kong people and the fact that our society itself uses Cantonese as the mainstream communication language.

 

Xing Ying: Exactly.

 

Condewei: Then let's move on to the sharing of the next poster, and then we will discuss it together. The next one is Lorraine, who is also a Cantonese literature creator. Some of her publications appear in Resonance. Please introduce: the first is your writing in writing, that is, in terms of criticism; in addition, you also have some writing in Cantonese, why is it so clearly distinguished when it is also literary creation? Is there a line? For example, when I chatted with some foreign scholars in the past, or when they discussed poetry with some Chinese scholars, the Chinese would habitually say "I do classical poetry" and "I do modern poetry". In your creative world, will it be divided into classical/modern and archaic Cantonese like this? How do you view this issue?

 

Lorraine: I think it’s the difference between the genres of writing. If I write some reviews, especially literary reviews or essays, I’m used to writing in Chinese style. Because for example, I speak Cantonese myself, it is easy to have some suffixes, such as "ma", "ne", and "ah". It may not be very conspicuous when you usually say it, but if you write it down, as long as you proofread it carefully, you may find that these suffixes are used in ten consecutive sentences. I feel that if I use Cantonese, some places will be more cumbersome, especially when I want to quote some ancient texts or annotations, using Chinese style texts to create can organize my thoughts twice. It means that when I think from the Cantonese way of thinking, then transform it into some concepts, and then transform it into Chinese style, I will slowly sort out my thinking, so when I write something that I think is more objective , I will get used to the language and style of writing. It is not a difference in style or right or wrong, but just my personal habit. But for example, when I helped to write some lyrics reviews for "Echo", many of them were aimed at Cantonese songs, like when you sing Cantonese songs, some places have rhymes and puns, and some places are aimed at different issues. I feel that it is more intuitive to write in Cantonese, and I can convey my feelings to readers more directly. For example, I wrote "Allure" in the first issue, "Forget and Remember" in one issue, and "Mirror" in the other issue. I felt that it would be more appropriate to use Cantonese in those issues. So I think it is better to use different words to express different language habits. Some of my (creations) may be aimed at different objects. For example, I will help publish a Cantonese picture book in the future. The purpose is to let some overseas Chinese children also be exposed to Cantonese. Those I will use Cantonese to create, plus Pinyin as a language teaching material. In a word, it is determined by different purposes, different situations or different states of individuals.

 

Kong Dewei: Your statement is similar to Xing Ying just now. Everyone will feel that Cantonese can better reflect their emotions or emotions. Similarly, I also have a question: Is it purely because our mother tongue is Cantonese, so we express it like this? Conversely, when I do some serious writing or try to be objective, I will use vernacular and written language in a schizophrenic manner. Do you think this is your idea?

 

Lorraine: I don't think it's a matter of seriousness or not, but a matter of personal creative habits. For example, when I write poetry myself, I get used to it...Maybe I usually read less Cantonese translations, and the poems I usually read are poems from Taiwan, mainland China or other places. I may still be used to seeing the creation of Chinese style, a writing method that is closer to northern Chinese. But this is just because of my own language habits, and it may not be what our next generation needs. Maybe our generation can also be like Uncle Yin Jiang, who wrote a lot of Cantonese poetry. Maybe our next generation will like it when they read it, and their whole mind will feel that Cantonese poetry is actually very "ghost, proud (interesting)", vivid, and can contain more meanings. Then when our next generation creates this type of work, they may choose to create it in Cantonese. So I think it is a personal problem, and how our entire language ecology is organized.

 

Condewi: Understood. So compared to where you are from or what your mother tongue is, you will feel that it is a habit. When you come into contact with the same type of text, what is the language the text is usually written in? Express yourself with the same language, a matter of habit.

 

Lorraine: I think it's also an attempt. Cantonese literature, especially the so-called "colloquial written" literature, is actually some new attempts. In the past, there were many people, but they may not be used to it... Now we publish some things every issue, and some organizations or teams may come up with one set, or ten sets of Cantonese teaching materials. The whole atmosphere has changed. In the past, there were many Cantonese literature creations written by predecessors who were very good, and they were also very groundbreaking. Among them, it has a symbolic and labeling effect, and I think this place is worth thinking about. To a certain extent, I feel that some people who speak "Cantonese literature" have a confrontational mentality. So is this confrontational mentality good? I don't know, but it does exist.

 

Condewi: Understood. What kind of Cantonese literary creators do you think were brilliant in the past? Like Huang Qi?

 

Lorraine: I study "Lingnan literati" myself. In fact, some "Lingnan literati" will try to write in Cantonese, and Huang Biyun may be the next one. Many people in Hong Kong literature have tried different language experiments. I may not be able to give too many examples, but I believe that several other seniors will definitely add more.

 

Condewi: Understood. Because of time constraints, we will be here first, and Dr. Li Weiting will be invited next.

 

Li Weiting: (Chinese) Let me talk about it first. The language I publish will be Mandarin with a Taiwanese accent. When it comes to some Cantonese texts, I will read Cantonese. It is very interesting that I have prepared a few pages of Powerpoint for you, so I can share with you how Cantonese entered the creation in the early days. I don't know if this can answer your very professional questions, such as "I write by hand, I speak" in the vernacular movement, whether things can be applied to (applicable to) Hong Kong. But in my own observation, I think they have a rather complicated way of speaking Cantonese... I'm talking about Hong Kong in the late Qing Dynasty. They still have some interesting ideas about Cantonese, but they also try their best to promote it. It is the part of "Cantonese". Isn't there a big movie "1921" coming out recently? Then I shared it with my friend, because he knew that I would share Huang Shizhong and Huang Boyao today. The two brothers used Hong Kong as a small base, and then helped the League distribute many newspapers. They had long hoped to establish a literature that communicated in Cantonese. Then I think I can answer two questions: because our mother tongue is Cantonese, we will be able to communicate in Cantonese very directly, but when they have a literary consciousness, and then have a literary idea-"We should also use Cantonese to create Cantonese", that is another situation.

 

In addition, (the picture in the briefing) this is "October Besieged City", this picture is that Huang Shizhong is going to protect those printing presses from being... because they have been anti-imperialist, anti-Qing, and anti-colonial, so they are afraid of printing The machine was seized. If we start from here, we will find that "Cantonese" is actually a barbarian...Huang Shizhong is a very political person, so Cantonese was very political from the beginning. When they started "East Guangdong Novels" in 1906, they were actually in Guangdong. Guangdong has its own accent, because Lingnan is very large, so Cantonese is also very large. In fact, Cantonese speaks "Hong Kong dialect" with us now. For example, some local groups say that we have "Cantonese of Hong Kong", which is similar to "Cantonese of Guangzhou". Cantonese" is different. Then it may be different from the Cantonese used in Malaysia and Singapore. So this situation actually happened during the Qing Dynasty. They seem to have their spoken and written expressions in every language. In this regard, the two brothers have done a lot of things. They really tried to use vernacular and classical Chinese as the creative language at the same time. Because they all wanted to take the imperial examination, but failed. But they are also highly educated, so they developed to the south. They are also people who can write in two languages, and they are also a bit like me from a traditional Chinese department. Then I want to learn Mandarin, or really want to understand written writing, or written expressions in general how is it. But that's very different from my spoken language, and they also face this situation. For them, the term "vernacular" is not the "vernacular" we used to talk about during the May Fourth Movement. Because the vernacular of the May Fourth Movement, after 1919, some style of writing, that is to say, the spoken language of each language, was refined into a purer language writing method. The "vernacular" they talk about is really a kind of "Cantonese vernacular" in Guangdong and southern Fujian, a kind of vernacular that they can share. Then I started to translate, and created some very interesting folk and popular literature and art, such as "Tanfeng", "Banben", "Yueqiu". And they themselves would write some witty articles ("spoofs") to make fun of the British colonial government and the Qing government. They also create some "Nanyin" or "Dragon Boat Songs", which are actually folk songs. At the end of the Qing Dynasty, after they arrived in Hong Kong, they actually worked hard to run a magazine and published it for many years.

 

After they arrived in Hong Kong, they also had an idea: why should we start this magazine——it is to keep improving. What they want to improve is "vernacular novels", which are outside of all kinds of novels. And those who use vernacular as a way to attract dialects, regardless of whether they are chapters, short stories, admonitions and satire , should all be known in the vernacular. (Note 1)” When they said it, they didn’t actually target the regime in the north at all. What they have to deal with is to think about "what people in southern Fujian think". This is actually not a new discovery, but Huang Shizhong and Huang Boyao actually failed the imperial examination when they were young, and the first place they went to was not Hong Kong, but Kuala Lumpur . Huang Shizhong went to work as a casino secretary. At that time, they already knew that many Cantonese-speaking diaspora groups who went to Nanyang to find work at that time would share this "vernacular" and also do some literary creation. After returning to Hong Kong, he felt that "since everyone uses "official language" now, and no one will think about people in Nanyang, it is better for us to write in vernacular!" So he went on to talk a lot about "novels This "improvement of novels" is actually not new at all, because it is Liang Qichao's saying "If you want to renew the people of a country, you must first renew the novels of a country." He added some things himself, because he created operas and Nanyin, so he thought, "Why don't we change operas too! We can make them more expressive, let them feel a lot of Cantonese folk literature and art, and at the same time, we can also use them handwriting their hearts, we will be united."

 

After "Chinese and Foreign Fiction Forest" came to Hong Kong, with the help of Hong Kong's publishing network, like the third wave of black death in Hong Kong before, the route of plague infection was Singapore, Malaya, San Francisco and other places. Of course, Huang Shizhong was also in these places later. Published "Chinese and Foreign Fiction Forest", so the readership of "Chinese and Foreign Fiction Forest" is quite different from today's "Echo". "Forest of Chinese and Foreign Novels" was consumed by groups in Malaya or Nanyang and then continued, because they had no money at that time. Next, for example, how do they speak Cantonese in their operas? It's like knowing some vernacular expressions, such as: "You traitor, traitor. You knew today. Why did you bother in the first place. Today is the time for your death. Wait for the girl to count you down. When you die, you will breathe. ( Note 2)" This kind of literary expression in Hong Kong in 1906 and 2007 is quite surprising. Huang Shizhong's example has answered some diaspora issues, but their identity in Guangdong is quite strong. At that time, it was often said in Hong Kong that speeches should be made in vernacular to make fun of the colonial government and oppose imperialism. They use it in the "rehearsal script", which is actually the script for Cantonese opera performances. Because the opera actors have limited language skills, they present it in spoken language, and they can rehearse it after reading it. Published in "Chinese and Foreign Fiction Forest". In addition, for example, Huang Shizhong's younger brother, Huang Boyao, is also a creator, and later (if I remember correctly) he has been teaching in an academy in Hong Kong. What's interesting is that they also create "Nanyin". A brief introduction of "Nanyin" is the music that Cantonese can sing (Note 3). In the end, how do they view their Cantonese identity? He said, "I and the gentlemen are both from Guangdong. Naturally, we are close, that is, we can discuss the truth, and it is easier... Overseas Chinese in my place live in other places, and are subject to politics and are ordered by others. Can it be respected? (Note 4)” So their use of Cantonese is very interesting, because they regard literature as part of politics. Today I would like to share with you these very interesting Cantonese expressions I saw. It was before 1910, probably like this.

 

Condevi: Well, thank you very much. Then we reserve a little time for our senior in the literary world, Ms. Deng Xiaohua, what do you think of the sudden and continuous promotion of the term "Cantonese literature" in recent years? Will it feel like a break, or a continuation?

 

Deng Xiaohua: I was born in the late 1970s. I create and write reviews in Hong Kong, and I also run several literary magazines, so I can add some of my own views. I myself started teaching writing classes almost after graduating from university, that is, in middle school writing classes. At that time, I already had a class dedicated to Cantonese writing. For example, at that time, I taught people like Xie Liwen (the creator of "McDull"), or some bloggers who wrote well, and I also taught "Yue Acura". I have been writing some articles to fight for the status of Cantonese. Just now Kong Dewei asked us how the rise of Cantonese literature is different from the previous wave. The issue of Cantonese is related to the mutual struggle between the official official language. It has always had a mixture of politics and aesthetics. I believe these waves are actually different. Contains the pursuit of politics and aesthetics. And because what we are studying is history, they may think it was quite political at that time, but what is handed down in modern times and let us see, usually has more aesthetic pursuits. Because from the very beginning, writing in Cantonese was actually political to a certain extent, but after the "scouring the sand and draining gold" in the history of literature, the rest are those with more outstanding aesthetic pursuits, not the best-selling ones, but with their own aesthetics. The height of uniqueness, representation. The Cantonese language movement we are currently in is of course very political. I don't disagree with the political part, but I have a strong emphasis on aesthetics in my studies, and I am more sensitive to the intersection of politics and aesthetics. Because from these junctions, we can see how we face a world, or new things that are being produced, or some fringe things, and feel our texture and confidence.

 

For example, we want to strive for Cantonese to become the official language; it must be normative and authoritative. These parts are actually normative derived from the perspective of language, and then point to authority. In fact, it is a power struggle (power struggle) . Regarding this part, I can only say that if I can win it, I would of course be happy to see it, but as a writer myself, I may not join in the process of shaping authority or creating norms. Because from the perspective of aesthetics, there are other standards: writing, language, text arrangement, expression, all have a consciousness about art, and the consciousness that they want to express to the audience (that is, what they want the audience to get), and the consciousness will have High and low. I think what is the concept held by most Hong Kong authors? For example, instead of pursuing purity, we pursue hybridity. Why did I teach students how to write in Cantonese instead of teaching them how to write descriptive essays in middle school? It is because we firmly believe that even in the writing of language and style, there should be diversity in it. The addition of other languages increases the complexity and diversity, and then the artistic level of the work will rise accordingly, rather than pursuing unity or authority. Just like some "language authorities" teach students not to write Cantonese, because it is not "pure vernacular". In fact, I am taking a marginal perspective to oppose that kind of authoritative discourse and thinking. When creating, you should let more diversity or language into your world, not push them out. So I don’t think there is only one language and one way of thinking in a beautiful work of art. I think that adding languages of different eras, races and places to a work will actually increase its artistic level, which is more in line with my artistic beliefs.

 

In addition, including myself and some senior writers, or I know that in recent years, many serious work reviews or creators have rethought how to write in Cantonese. We are still under the same political current. They want to create in Cantonese not for profit, but out of a kind of identity. So I also understand why people want to translate and publish Cantonese magazines in Cantonese, and why they want more people to use Cantonese. Many seniors continue to work hard even after retirement. For example, Mr. Cai Yanpei also uses a lot of Cantonese to compose, but in relatively complete collections, his Cantonese poems are relatively seldom included. It is always necessary to show a writer's artistic achievements, and when he becomes a model, his Cantonese poetry will be taken away. In fact, these predecessors have excellent Cantonese creations. "Cantonese creations" is actually a very rich treasure, and it still needs everyone to work hard to organize and comment.

 

In addition, when Cantonese is used in the work, how can it be easier to operate? Naturally, dialogues will be used; or Cantonese literature should be used to express "living ghosts (lively and interesting)", kindness, and commonplace. This is a very common statement, and it is also a mainstream statement, but the serious literary and art circles do not only focus on this point. For example, around 2007, Dong Qizhang used a lot of Cantonese to create his "A History of Time: The Light of Dumb Porcelain". Dong Qizhang also specifically mentioned that although there are a lot of Cantonese dialogues in it, the most challenging thing in it is to discuss some serious issues in Cantonese. Questions like life, meaning, and philosophy. Why did he do this? In fact, when we talk about the humorous, lively, and witty characteristics of Cantonese, we actually limit the possibilities of Cantonese. Those "ghosts" and happy emotions only account for a very small part of us. If the strength of Cantonese is that it is suitable for expressing these emotions, does it mean that Cantonese is not suitable for expressing other things? If Cantonese can't express melancholy, decadence, or lingering affection, then its vitality as a language is quite low. Therefore, serious art writers are trying to express serious topics and concepts in Cantonese, so as to expand the scope and flexibility of Cantonese.

 

I am convinced that there is a structure similar to ancient Chinese in Cantonese, which is more concise than Mandarin. So I once wanted to use this "concise" structure to write a poem. The poem was to comment on a modern dance work, and I hoped to write more abstract philosophical thinking from the modern dance work. I wrote it in Cantonese, and it was quite long, but it failed in the end. First of all, Cantonese has its own difficulty, as if it does not seem to have an established position. If you want to ask whether something is Cantonese, then put it It is difficult to separate out. If you want to label "this is created for Cantonese", it takes a lot of energy to write out its niche, and it will fail if you are not careful. What I want to tell you is that it is worthwhile to do things for the Cantonese here, and it also requires a lot of will and mind. I hope that everyone can know what each other is doing and can support each other.

 

Condewi: Then I think we can go straight to the discussion time. First of all, because a lot of questions have been accumulated in the message area, it is better to ask the interested viewers to ask questions... If not, I will first summarize some questions from the message area, and then the final ranking is the communication between the guests.

 

Does anyone here want to ask questions? You can turn on the microphone yourself if you have one. The first message I saw was that many friends had great controversy about the writing of Cantonese—how to use it as a possibility of writing, or the style of Chinese language. Deng Xiaohua shared a lot just now. I think Teacher Guan will be interested in responding, because this is different from the usual private discussions I have with you. Would you be interested in sharing it first?

 

Guan Yuxing: When I was looking for an author, my immediate reaction was often "How should I write this character?", "What is the correct way to write it in Cantonese?" In fact, it is very often that they created their own characters. This will be a matter of editing in the first place. Before I started "Echo", I had a project called "Cantonese Dictionary", which is an online Cantonese dictionary. I will answer those questions with the benchmarks I used when I was running "Cantonese Dictionary". If you want to ask what is correct and what is in line with authority, there is indeed no such thing as a strong institution or authority to do it. You don’t need that kind of authority to write your thoughts or stories, as long as other people can read it.

Of course, if you try to write it, and other people can’t understand it, or if you write it in 5P characters (similar to Martian), then it will of course have its own unique effect, but is this effect what you want? ? Not necessarily. Then I would tell them: "You write first, and then let the editor read it, or we will modify it after you finish writing." Of course, usually after they finish speaking, do they need special revisions, or special revisions? What about compiling the so-called "orthographic"? Not quite. Why do people need this (authoritative) assurance (assurance) to write with peace of mind? In fact, I think this is a problem, and it is also a stage that any language creation will go through. But to me, whether a symbol is correct or not, is it really that important to express ideas, write stories, and create myths? Not really. In addition, I would like to respond. Dr. Li just mentioned Cantonese in Nanyang and Southeast Asia. Our magazine recently found a Singaporean friend. He helped us organize a Nanyang writing essay competition, which attracted many Malaysians, Singaporeans, and Indonesians. I found that their imagination of Cantonese is not very different from ours, but they don’t seem to have that kind of "relationship" in writing - they will lose the kind of "Ah! This is a written language" "Ah ! This is colloquial language"... What they write will be less filtered or shackles. Granted, the sample size they created wasn't large enough for me to see a fundamental difference, but it's an interesting observation.

 

Li Weiting: I find this observation very interesting, because when writing written Chinese, all Cantonese-speaking people should think about how to write written Chinese in Cantonese. This is (Deng) Xiaohua also mentioned a lot, for example, in the process of canonization, many Cantonese works will be taken away, or how to use Cantonese to express emotions such as sadness and melancholy? In fact, at this position, some creators, as far as the two I observed (Huang Shizhong, Huang Boyao), will become a bit mixed with ancient Chinese. Because the characters they wrote were borrowed from there, and then some Cantonese suffixes were added to complete their Chinese creations. For example, we don’t ask Dong Qizhang’s "A Fantastic History of Time: The Light of Dumb Porcelain" whether it is "a written language spoken in Mandarin", "a written language spoken in Cantonese" or "Cantonese". Because they are often told that "Chinese is not good", so what kind of "Chinese is not good"? After all, it is a kind of normative-like Beijing and Taiwan will also have... (Chinese) like Taiwan's State Council will also issue some dictionaries (to guide them how to use), so if it is this kind of official release, it is another one thing. The problem is that there is no regime established in Cantonese. If it is answered in this way, Cantonese will eventually become a problem again—when a language becomes an official language, it will create new problems. My thoughts are closer to Xiaohua's. Although everyone uses political methods to interpret language, I think that in terms of creation...my own observation is, how to deal with the relationship between Cantonese and ancient Chinese? In ancient Chinese——When I report in ancient Chinese, my classmates will ask me... Anyway, they are "praising" the Chinese (chinese), and then add two Cantonese sounds, you can't completely treat it as Cantonese, so Things keep reincarnating (such a loop), so I will throw a question for everyone to think about.

 

Kong Dewei: Is there a friend who wants to respond? I saw two people raised their hands just now.

 

Lorraine: (in Chinese) It's me. I also use Chinese to speak. Because some of my friends wrote in Cantonese before, and some did not. They once shared a very interesting post: that is to say, some legal documents and land deeds are also written in Cantonese, and they have legal effects. We just talked about a lot of things—some of them were discussed in the comment area—and we also said that "it is difficult to strive for Cantonese to be a semi-official language." In fact, we can think about what legal documents say...Chinese is An official language, but isn't "Chinese" the official language that we usually recognize? If our entire society uses Cantonese to create and write, and we try to interpret many regulations in Cantonese, can there be some legal documents written in Cantonese that still have the same legal effect? I think there are some friends—especially friends in the legal field who have studied it, and it seems that there is no problem. And when we talk about what we want to fight for, we need a political power to recognize our status, but if we don’t care about political things in law, is there actually a need to fight for recognition from others?

 

Okay, then switch back to Cantonese. What's interesting is that when I looked back at the literature of the 1950s, 1960s, or 1970s, I forgot who said: "An era has its own literature." Looking back at the newspapers of the 1920s, 1930s, and 1940s, it was Classical Chinese despises Chinese-style writing; in the 1960s and 1970s, or 1970s and 1980s, Chinese-style writing began to despise Cantonese; but now Cantonese does not seem to have a sufficient status to despise others. Do we have to be recognized by certain people, or recognized by certain regimes, groups, or organizations before we have the right to create; or does it have to recognize us when we have a certain degree of productivity and power? I think this is a very interesting one, and it is worthy of everyone's thinking and discussion. "Whether the regime accepts us" and "whether we do it" are two different things - that's how I think.

 

Kong Dewei: I’m sorry, but I want to ask a little more clearly: the “productivity” mentioned just now refers to “economic productivity” or “literary productivity”?

 

Lorraine: I think it's the degree of prosperity of the entire ecology, maybe my wording is not very appropriate.

 

Condewi: Understood. If there is no friend who wants to respond next, there is a viewer who wants to ask in the message area...

 

Deng Xiaohua: I want to respond. I'm stretching a little bit here because I talk too fast and sometimes too sloppily. It is true that Cantonese is currently a marginal language in my opinion, but there is actually a lot of freedom and possibility in the margin. We don't need to be recognized by others before doing it. But there is a situation - my question is: do we actually need to strive for a so-called statutory framework? I also said that I don't really care if I succeed or not; the discussion about the law just now, if it can be achieved, I would like to see it succeed, but in fact I am very confused (puzzled) about the requirements of unity and orthodoxy. Because frankly, for example, I read an interview about "Resonance" that the editor would make changes because he felt that the author's grammar was "not so Cantonese". Frankly speaking, I have been an editor of a literary magazine for so many years. Even if a contributor uses a language style, I will not change the grammar if there is a problem. I was quite surprised (shocked) that this popular Cantonese journal would do this. I don’t know if it’s different in concept, but I want to explain why I won’t change it: I don’t think “regulation” is the best way to guarantee creativity; I think “mixing” is the best way to guarantee creativity. belief. So frankly I was quite surprised.

 

So can I show a picture of what I've worked so hard to make? Let me explain this "Cantonese Square Matrix (Figure)" (as follows):

 

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First of all, we need to break the binary thinking, but not by deconstruction, but by construction, like the so-called "Greimas square", which is a method of structural linguistics. In this square there are two sets of opposing ideas:

1. "Written language" vs "oral language" (not "Cantonese"), for example, Hunan dialect is also divided into written language and spoken language;

2. "Vernacular (Mandarin)" vs "Cantonese"

"Spoken language" and "Cantonese" are "similar", but not identical; the same is true for "written language" and "vernacular". After splitting the two groups in this way, we can see that a concept of "compatibility" can actually be generated between each cross. In this way, some dualistic thinking can be broken: for example, the idea that "Cantonese" has no "written language" is completely wrong-there is also a written language in Cantonese. For example, "Welcome" is not only in Cantonese, but also in written language. If you look at it this way, the world and possibilities of Cantonese will be much larger.

 

Then "oral language" became "vernacular". Let me give you an example: "little hoof" often appears in "Dream of Red Mansions", but it actually means "servant street" or "dead girl". We are objective in doing academics. "Pu Jie" is "Pu Jie", which is a bit rude, and it is insults between maids like "little hoof, you are really too lazy." (Little hoof, you are so bad. )” is a colloquial language, but it becomes part of the vernacular after it is presented in written form; then “Welcome” is a spoken language that can be “spoken” in Cantonese. For example, when you go to a convenience store, someone will say “Welcome”. If all the things that can be turned into written language are not included in literary works, and then the identity of Cantonese is intended to become "very distinct", then in fact, even "Welcome" cannot be written. For example, I have a teacher—Professor Zhang Hongnian, who published "Hong Kong Cantonese: Exploring the Vicissitudes of the Two Hundred Years" this year. In fact, he also opposed the distinction between "Cantonese" and "Central Plains" too clearly. He said: "If you really want to distinguish It’s so clear, so don’t even say “Ni Hao”, “Ni Hao” also came from the Central Plains.” So we will always find that there is no so-called absolute “pure, pure” root...

Kong Dewei: Come here, let’s ask him (Guan Yuxing) to respond first, because other friends raised their hands later. Teacher Guan can quickly respond.

Deng Xiaohua: Is he an editor? Maybe he isn't?

Guan Yuxing: Actually, I am the editor (of "Echo"), but let me state in advance that the interviewed editor is not me. The more "code-mixing" you have, the more mixing, the more boundary-pushing, the more... we will call it "torture". I like the concept of "torture" very much. I think that to explore a consciousness or an idea is actually to "torture" the idea. Like pouring a glass of water, the water itself has no shape, but after being filled into the glass, it will have the shape of the glass. Then when we look at the boundary, look at the aspect of the challenge, and look at the limitation, then we can see the shape of the consciousness and thoughts "contained" in the water. When I talk about Cantonese norms myself, I am extremely opposed to the kind of "Cantonese Fascism" or "Cantonese Taliban". This pursuit of "pure Cantonese", or there is a "Cantonese orthodoxy", or it can be traced back to the ancient book many years ago, "It happens to have the same pronunciation or similar meaning to another word in Cantonese, so it must have come from there. Evolved" and stuff like that. This thing is...you can do what you like, but it has nothing to do with what I'm doing now.

Kong Dewei: So it means that the editing and editorial standards in "Echo" are also diverse, or are they "torturing" everyone?

Guan Yuxing: We often quarreled and tortured each other. For example, we once had a quarrel over how to write the character "呵".

Condewi: Ok, we have the opportunity to share again, because there are many questions accumulated at present.
 

Audience 1 (Lut Ming): Hello everyone, I am very grateful to all the speakers. I especially noticed and liked Deng Xiaohua’s mention of the pursuit of aesthetics just now. I immediately thought: if you say “fiction”, I think of Huang Biyun’s "The Legend of the Strong Man", I don't know if she is considered a person who writes in Cantonese?

 

Li Weiting: Forget it.

 

Listener 1 (Lut Ming): Yes. It ("Biography of Lie Lao") is well matched to the entire structure and context, but it has really reached a literary height. I think it is not as simple as simply saying "write in Cantonese", but that the whole set of things needs to be coordinated. In addition, in response to the second matter, I flipped through "Selected Poems of Cai Yanpei" and found that his Cantonese poems were actually included in it, but it seemed that there was less "power" because listening to him read poems, It is also a supporting issue. If you add the part of reading aloud, it will be much more powerful. I have two responses.

 

Li Weiting: So now, should we answer the question about "Cantonese Opera"? Did anyone want to respond just now... I think I can only respond to the late Qing Dynasty question, so you (Lorraine) can respond first.

 

Lorraine: He asked questions about "Cantonese opera" and "Cantonese literature" (in the message area). In fact, if you have an impression of Tang Tisheng, you may think that his "Falling Flowers Cover the Sky with Moonlight" is beautiful. Then he wrote a lot It's beautiful - like the various Cantonese opera texts of "The Story of the Red Plum". But he also has a few - for example, "Tang Bohu Spots the Autumn Fragrance" is pure Cantonese, and (in his scripts) Cantonese also accounts for a lot, and it is very "zhangui", "vigorous", and "coquettish". There are actually many examples of colloquialism. When I looked back at the newspaper reviews at the time, they were actually very polarized. For example, when Teacher Xiao Si finished reading "The Story of the Red Plum", she thought that it actually helped her connect with the classical Chinese literature of the past. And when she said it, she used a perspective of admiration, thinking that the lyrics are very beautiful and can be superior to the traditional context. But at the same time, there are also many critics criticizing, for example, works that are close to "Cantonese opera" or Cantonese are vulgar and just a fad, thinking that "it's no wonder Cantonese opera will decline", etc. It seems that Cantonese operas that are closer to traditional Chinese literature are good, and vice versa are bad works that are more vulgar and cater to the public. Of course I do not agree with this kind of value judgment, but these comments do have their reasons for their existence, and some characteristics can also be seen, for example, the more straightforward they are to express their thoughts, the less images and metaphors are used, the more they will be regarded by the literati at that time. Look down on. Then this is a small observation. I may not be able to answer the question, but I just hope to throw out more ideas for everyone to respond to.

 

Li Weiting: Let me reply to the relationship with "Cantonese script". Of course, there is actually a big problem with Cantonese opera. When you read the script, you should have several questions: First, is it a "copywriting"? It was for this play at the time...For example, Tang Xianzu had a "desk play". This "desk play" was actually to be rewritten into a play for formal performances, and that kind of rewriting also involved the use of the script, for example, through rehearsals. Make changes to the content. So from my own understanding, are you talking about the "desk" book or the "oral" book? Speaking... (Chinese) If they want to rehearse, of course they use a convenient way to understand the question of "rehearsal". And the limitation of the script is: except for "Zaoshou", it is full of dialogues. When dealing with some Cantonese dialogues, of course, write in the content that can be read directly-if it is a rehearsal version-like the one just read (the rehearsal version of "The Prostitute") is already there.

 

Going back to what Xiaohua just said—the words of Zhang Hongnian’s book, from the perspective of research, we must first define "what is Cantonese literature", and then "how to understand the literariness in literature", or is it necessary to restore "Cantonese literature?" Is it the language used”? For example, Ma Lixin created a dictionary by himself, because they were going to Guangdong to preach, so is it a kind of norm? Then how many layers can this (possible) specification involve?

 

Now the point of controversy is "Can "written language" and "spoken language" be replaced?" That is a linguistic issue. Of course they can be exchanged, but on a political level... If we want to raise up now—we want to have a Cantonese literature and a consciousness of "literature", then it will have conflicts with the original use of language Make some distinctions. If there is no such awareness, it is just the flexible use of some languages, such as Yinjiang's poems, or when Huang Shizhong and the others are composing, because they are Cantonese, they can use some (Cantonese) characters, and they can use classical Chinese and dialects. You can’t say it’s not Cantonese literature, but it’s not the “officialization of Cantonese” we’re trying to fight for now.

 

Teacher Zhang Hongnian was discussing "don't have too much conflict with the northern language, because languages can communicate", which is absolutely correct, because the essence of language is not a single thing, if it is a single thing, then it It will be something of the nobles, then we are not qualified to use it at all. I think this issue should be separated, otherwise there will be constant confusion about how to deal with literature, and then we will have to argue about literariness in literature. Regarding how to define the literariness of Cantonese, I think this is an issue of the aesthetic institution, that is, why should there be a single aesthetic in a literary experience? I don’t like this kind of discussion. I will make it alive from the perspective of folklore, and that will become literature, and it is absolutely different from the official language—the official language is really a regime, a nation. The language recognized by the country (nation-state). I think this aspect must have something to do with it. Where it is related is your problem.

 

Condewei: Well, why don't we let an audience member ask a question first, and he has raised his hand for a while... He seems to be absent, so why don't we let the audience finish the question first, there is a friend named Speaker Kei.

 

Audience 2 (Speaker Kei): I am not a literature student myself, and my literary attainments are not too high. I usually read politics and mass communication. I would like to ask a question about the media. It seems that it was mentioned earlier that "whether Cantonese is an official language" will have a great impact on the promotion or use of Cantonese. So what do you think of the platform or tool "Internet"? Many of the users present here rely on writing and literature for their livelihood. How do you view the extent to which online platforms are helpful to your work? Or it may not necessarily be help, but it may also be influence. My question may be superficial. That's about it, thanks.

 

Condewei: You are welcome. Anyone want to discuss?

 

Guan Yuxing: Why don't I say it first. From beginning to end, our magazine was also generated by crowdfunding and network promotion. If we look at it from the perspective of mass media—how to promote Cantonese as a media, we can look at it from the perspective of attention economy: people have 24 hours in a day, how many hours are consumed in " "Speak Cantonese", "absorb Cantonese" or "interpret the world in Cantonese"? In other words, the so-called "market share" of Cantonese. Competing for this "market share" is currently everyone's biggest anxiety. For example, you will see some interviews with elementary school students on the Internet, and they will be asked: "Ah! Can you speak this Cantonese word? Do you usually watch YouTube in Hong Kong or Cantonese? Or do you usually watch Watching TV programs in Hong Kong or Cantonese?" Visitors like to take pictures of elementary school students saying to the camera in Mandarin: "No, I always watch those mainland TV programs..." Then it will trigger everyone's Collective anxiety, thinking that because no one seems to watch or use it now, will the next generation disappear? But if we use the concept of attention economy to look at Cantonese, in fact, whether we are listening or speaking, the surrounding environment is still surrounded by very homogeneous Cantonese.

 

So how big is the impact of the Internet? It's actually super big. For example, the preferred format on the Internet is also Cantonese, shorter, faster, and more immediate. For us Hong Kong or Cantonese speakers, Cantonese is the fastest, shortest, and most instantaneous (instantaneous) language. Therefore, the influence of the Internet on Cantonese, from YouTube to Lian Deng, Gordon, etc., or blogs, Xanga, etc., the biggest impact should be to provide an instant, very Cantonese-friendly format for everyone to use, thus allowing Cantonese to dominate Everyone's attention span increases.

 

Kong Dewei: Did a friend named LR come back just now? If not, does Ms. Deng want to respond? I guess you want to respond to the previous one.

 

Deng Xiaohua: That’s right, I just want to answer a few questions: The first is the problem that Luo Lin just mentioned in Cantonese opera, that is, the more allusions are used and the closer to classical Chinese, the better, and the more witty and daily farce the better. Difference. The issue of the literary system raised here is actually what Weiting is more concerned about, so I will respond together: In fact, literature has this problem. The difference between literature and anthropology is that there is no distinction between anthropology and literature. There are highs and lows - not everything can be turned into "literature" and it would be scary if we had to study every single note. So there must be a screening process, some things are more worthy of research, and some are not. For me, this is a possibility that literature is terrible or stale. During the May Fourth Movement, Lu Xun also said that if this was the "Palace of Art", he would rather not enter it. Literary history is like this. Not everyone and every work will be remembered by literary history. For example, like me, I have absolutely no place in literary history. I am very sure. But this matter does not stop us from doing what we want to do, and I also think that literature is worth continuing to do, which is what Derrida said. As a master of deconstruction, Derrida believes that the literary establishment is the most capable of reflecting on what is wrong with its own establishment. I quite believe in this point, regardless of whether he "knows best" to reflect on himself, I guess what he means is: if we are in a system, we have the opportunity to have some power, but at the same time we keep reflecting on whether this right is there Obsolete, this is a proof that we can have the legitimacy to use this power.

 

So on the point of Cantonese, I actually disagree with what Lorraine mentioned just now—some people think that Cantonese is very elegant when it uses classics. I don’t like this set of logical thinking. I especially don’t like to apply it to... I think Cantonese opera is fine, because “drama” is a genre with a longer history, and it has more internal contexts of textual dialogues that can be discovered, so I am more acceptable. But if it is Cantonese in modern literature, then Hong Kong has been open for 150 years, and it still needs to be used, I think it is actually very remote. What I like about Cantonese myself is that it has a position as a marginal language, and then it can introduce the possibility of some fresh languages. And if it can generate a kind of vitality of "following the above" in the text, I think it is the most interesting. Of course, many people in Hong Kong have done very well, and the predecessors who have been able to leave a mark in the history of literature have also done very well in this regard, but their level of "offending the superiors" is very high. I would like to give another example to explain how important this "diversity" is: About 10 years ago, I wrote an article to defend Cantonese, similarly called "Cantonese Rebels Forever", which mentioned a poem by Yinjiang ( <Good-looking>): "Such a good-looking person / likes to play war / no wonder you, me, him and him / speak hatred lightly". The whole poem is in rhyme, and at the end of the poem, he asked God a question, and God said "the pillar of salt in the sky/the riches and honor of the family on the earth", and then this sentence is "said by God". Then there was a comment that refuted me, saying that he didn’t like that all the poems were written in vernacular at the beginning, and only the last sentence was in Cantonese. I was really angry because every line of this poem actually rhymes, and the rhyme can only be obtained in Cantonese, which cannot be rhymed in Chinese style. You can’t even recognize someone who uses Cantonese, but you can only recognize those "倾", "啦", "嗰", then I really have nothing to say, it is a waste of me to use this language to argue with him, but he is wronged to drink This incident made me very unhappy. But it also reveals one thing: Why is it so easy for Yinjiang to achieve the feeling of "offending the superior"? Because God is often written in his poems, and God often speaks Cantonese, just like the feeling of "Cantonese Bible" just now, this feeling is very different, so if in a world where there is no distinction between superiors and inferiors ——Even if there is no God, and everything is in Cantonese, there is no way to play this trick of "following the above". So why do we say that this diversity is so important, that is, when the sacred and the vulgar can be mixed together, the sacred will be more sacred, or the sacred will be so vulgar, or the vulgar will be even more vulgar. Achieve the feeling of the "phalanx" just now. It does not mean that vulgar things are always vulgar, and that sacred things are always holy. I think as long as we figure out that we continue to maintain this diversity, and this sense of rebellion, we can continue to defend or defend this aesthetic issue. I am not afraid to use these words, because I feel that the system I am currently in can still... the field I am in can still have energy.

 

Kong Dewei: Understood, good. A friend named Albert Hui raised his hand just now, let the audience ask if it is all right? Will Albert Hui want to ask questions?

 

Audience 3 (Albert Hui): Hello, I would like to take this opportunity to thank all the experts for their opinions. Then I also look at it from the user's point of view. I think that before the editors of "Echo" for example, they would change some of the written writing to be more colloquial. I think this is of course the opinion of each editor. But I think it actually reflects a problem: What is "Cantonese writing"? In fact, there is no good consensus so far. I imagine Deng Xiaohua's imaginative space is actually very broad, in addition to spoken language...does spoken language have to be called popular? Cantonese spoken in the 1950s and 1960s was actually very elegant. Even when exchanging business cards with others, they would say "Huici business card" and so on. Now this kind of spoken language has become very uncolloquial and has become very elegant. But on the other hand, the northern dialect has lost this kind of inheritance, so in fact, if the purpose of writing Cantonese is to preserve the culture, or to rediscover the vitality of this culture, maybe this imagination space can be expanded a little bit, isn’t it? It's as simple as pure colloquialism. Because of this era, Cantonese writing can also have a very elegant style. There are some paranoid ideas that "you must speak English", which is a very self-regulating view. I think that the "imaginative space" may be expanded a little bit in this respect; but I also think that if the so-called "difference between elegance and vulgarity", will there be some elements in it about "distance from daily life"? When Dante wrote "The Divine Comedy", wasn't the Italian he wrote very colloquial at the time? Or we don’t really need to consider this point. Until today, even if Italians re-read the words used in "The Divine Comedy", they already have a sense of distance and a sense of "elegance". I think this is also a dimension that can be considered (dimension ). grateful.

 

Kong Dewei: Well, I saw Lorraine raised her hand, but this question is for "Echo", so can the editor (Guan Yuxing) respond, about whether to modify the contributor's wording.

 

Lorraine: I want to share a little bit first, and then let Teacher Guan talk about it. Because I am the author, I think whether to change this problem depends on who is responsible. To be honest, there are also long-term contradictions within "Echo". In fact, my own writing is not entirely limited to spoken language. For example, I have tried to write an article saying "Hey, without you, the sky will collapse, and with you, the sun will shine again (Hey, without you, the sky will collapse, and with you The sun and the moon reappear)". The four-character idioms of "Heaven collapses and Earth collapses, the sun and the moon reappear" may not be very colloquial or Cantonese to some people, but the editors at that time felt that there was no problem. What is Cantonese? I appreciate and agree with what senior Deng Xiaohua said: Cantonese should be diverse and mixed. I just said in the comment area: Cantonese should be very decentralized. Like we are discussing blockchain, coins, and encryption now, everyone can participate without relying on A certain kind of establishment, a very centralized force. If we only rely on the support of some people, what if he doesn't support tomorrow, if he allocates money today and doesn't allocate money tomorrow? So at the beginning, I had a lesson money for "Echo". When I was trying to get rid of them, I felt that doing literature through crowdfunding was from the public to the public. Do what you want to do. So at this point I want to share a little bit.

 

Condewei: Okay, I understand. Does Teacher Guan have anything to say?

 

Guan Yuxing: Thank you boss, thank you boss.

 

Deng Xiaohua: Can Guan Sheng talk about how to deal with internal conflicts?

 

Guan Yuxing: Because we...actually, when there are differences in language sense and disputes, we usually quarrel for a day or two. If we still can’t resolve it in the end, we will decide by guessing, that is, by random comparison, or by playing Yu-Gi-Oh. , in short, it is decided by the game.

 

Deng Xiaohua: No, actually I want to say that I have been working (editing) for so long, and things like language and sense of language are very serious. For example, of course I think my sense of language is the best, so I will use my sense of language to regulate the sense of language of other people in the magazine. This is actually a terrible dictatorship, and it is impossible for me. That is to say, even if you think you have the best sense of language, you must understand that others may not think it is the best. There is no reason for you to force others to think "this is the best" or "only in this way can it be published". I don't know how you guys maintain your friendship - that's purely from the editor's point of view of a literary magazine, I don't know how you guys maintain your relationship, but you have been exposed today - let others know that you decide by guessing or playing games, your authority Already crashed. I suggest that you make a post tomorrow saying "Give up this meaningless authority and join this melting pot of hybridity. Long live equality! Unleash the greatest creative energy for Cantonese!" Like this.

 

Guan Yuxing: Our recent game is dice, which is to draw a number from 1 to 100. I think such randomness is the best choice, because we don’t want to touch anything about Taoism, and we are not interested in Taoism.

 

Condewei: It's okay.

 

Li Weiting: I will be a centrist...

 

Lorraine: In the past two years, the Chinese Literary Creation Award (winning) has caused a lot of controversy when changing people’s names and changing other people’s works. Why not change it from the beginning to the end...

 

Li Weiting: Actually, I want to be a centrist. Cantonese grammar cannot be determined by throwing dice. I suggest that you go back and buy this book ("Hong Kong Cantonese: Exploring Two Hundred Years of Vicissitudes"), or have many reference books. For example, in the 1920s and 1930s, "Introduction to Cantonese" and Cantonese dictionaries were published very early in the late Qing Dynasty, and there were many editions of them, many of which were also printed in Hong Kong. If you don't know how to write a certain word, you can actually refer to it. The "Cantonese Dictionary" was actually published at the book fair about two years ago. I think it is also worth collecting and referring to, at least how to write characters and understand the circulation behind them. But editing is another matter.

 

Condewei: There is about 10 minutes, why not let the two listeners ask questions first. The first is Hugo.

 

Guan Yuxing: I will just say one more thing. In fact, we mainly refer to "Cantonese Code"...

 

Condewei: Let the guests ask questions first, Hugo, do you have any opinions?

 

Audience 4 (Hugo): Actually, I am—there is a Nanyang column in "Echo", and I am responsible for helping to promote and find people. In fact, in Singapore, we want to promote or encourage some locals or Malaysian Chinese who are accustomed to writing Chinese. They may speak Cantonese at home, but neither Singapore nor Malaysia has such a (writing) platform. I will provide an opportunity for them to try to write in Cantonese. Many people will encounter problems—maybe they even have problems typing, they will ask me, or they will think that there is no other way to find the word. Not some professional opinion. So the question of whether it is possible to modify or not is—at least what I have seen in Southeast Asia: Maybe the author wants to type the word "叶", which is the "奶" in "食净饭失 (Have you eaten yet)?", but They really can’t type the word “口” plus “左”, or they don’t know the difference. Maybe they pronounce it the same, but it will be different when they write it. My understanding is at the editorial level. It will be: when there are some obvious errors that even the author does not know, or some variant characters on the font, this will be handled in this way. They have many expressions of their own in Southeast Asia, such as "Have you eaten yet?" They retain their own characteristics of speaking like these, and this one will not be changed. Because I am studying linguistics, I find it interesting that "Echo" or the interaction with other authors can actually be written a paper to study it. Or I think it is a stage of experimentation—it may be an initial stage in Singapore or Malaysia. I think there will be some doubts at the beginning, but I believe that there will gradually be a consensus, or disputes over the use of words. less and less.

 

Kong Dewei: Well, maybe don’t respond yet, it will take a long time to respond, and we still have a Mr. Yao who wants to ask questions.

 

Audience 5 (Yao Wensong): Hello everyone, I agree with the discussion of "Cantonese is a decentralized language" just now, that is, everyone works together to promote it. Before, I wondered whether there was a need for an institution to regulate "how to write Hong Kong-style Chinese", for example, an authority like the French Academy of Arts was needed to formulate it. However, I think that Hong Kong still uses Cantonese at present, and there should be no such worries. However, I have noticed that the media will use some Chinese terms. In fact, I am a little worried about this. This is my thought. But what I observed in Taiwan is that nowadays Hokkien and Hakka are actually not understood by many people. Basically, if they want to discuss more academic things, they will switch back to Beijing or Mandarin to discuss more. Smooth, because many words do not know how to translate into Hokkien or Hakka. Because after the National Language Movement of the Kuomintang, there was a gap between Hokkien and Hakka, so in this place, it is necessary to go to the French Academy of Arts to standardize the use of words or pronunciation, or how to formulate the corresponding translation. My sharing probably ends here, thank you.

 

Kong Dewei: Thank you, Mr. Yao, if each of us wants to summarize, it takes a few minutes, so let's finish in 20 minutes, okay?

 

Deng Xiaohua: What I want to say is that it is indeed compiling dictionaries, grammar books, or historical collations—because “dictionary” may be the current usage, but as Weiting said, we may see that Cantonese needs to refer to another Yes, it is actually the old literary history of Cantonese, because it also has some "special meaning" - a special sense of language. A special sense of language is very useful for creation. For example, we can see how the Cantonese Bible is... "If your brother has a bar in your eyes, you can see it. If you have a bar in your own eyes, you don't even know it." Sense of seeing, why? (Why do you see the speck in your brother’s eye, but don’t think of the log in your own eye?)” These language and language sense are actually very helpful to our creation. So one aspect is that we should dig deep into history and do some reference books. I think it should be possible in Hong Kong at present. But when it comes to reference books, doing history, or dealing with literature—I don’t know if it’s right, but at least everyone can discuss it—because I think there must be a liberal neutral spirit. Although it has to be a... It has its political influence, each of us has our own ideology, but when we do this, I think we should have a liberal and neutral spirit, and try not to be influenced by ideology manipulate. Like the predecessors——Yin Haiguang and others edited "Free China", this publication advocates the pursuit of Taiwan to lift the party ban and implement multi-party politics, but the literature and art edition edited by Nie Hualing is very free, and there is no need to promote rightist ideas. There is no need to follow the Kuomintang's rhetoric, they only need to publish the best literature. I think this is part of showing a "noble handling of literature", using a liberal and neutral spirit to preserve the best works.

 

Then of course I understand the current Cantonese movement. We don’t need to discuss what “Cantonese literature” is. We just need to say that there is a “Cantonese movement” now—it is indeed a movement. I don’t think there is any need to deny it. Today’s The seminar can justify the name of this movement. The Cantonese movement has already occurred, and ideology may not be neutral, but when we make these reference books, we still focus on a spirit of diligent storage. I'm sorry, I may have read too much of "Words in the World" or "Daduhai", that is, we use a "heart that likes this language" and try to collect it as much as possible. In fact, it is the spirit of an anthropologist, not a market scholar. The spirit does not necessarily have to be an academic or aristocratic spirit. The spirit of this anthropologist is like "I want to know what is there", "There is a new thing I don't know, I have learned it now, and people now use it like this", starting from the spirit of an anthropologist, this tool Books can last longer. "Reference book" is to make a good tool. Of course, we are now experiencing the same political current, so it will definitely have an impact. But I think that everyone can also think about it: if you don’t want to think about how to make a good tool, and you can’t even make a tool, then those of us who are engaged in creation should only start from an aesthetic point of view. Doesn't make sense? For example, I went back and said to the editor who wanted to revise someone else's work: "Do you think your language sense alone should dominate the entire magazine, can you justify it? Is your language sense the best?" Because I really dare not say I The sense of language is the best, isn't it.

 

Condewi: Who else would like to publish? It's almost time when we finished talking, was there another one just now?

 

Lorraine: In fact, readers can also say that I am just repeating what I just posted in the message area. I think what everyone is discussing today, but in the current sentence, it is decentralized and crown system—that is, "decentralized culture” and “mass consensus”. Why must someone admit it? Why can't there be a spontaneous energy? Why can't we do what we want and then challenge some so-called authority? Someone asked a legal question just now. When I responded in Mandarin, I said that there are actually some land deeds and legal documents written in Cantonese. There is no problem. When we said that Cantonese should have legal status, have you ever thought about it? To speak and write Cantonese; when lawyers start to try to write in Cantonese, we don't really need official recognition. Since we are of the same origin as "Chinese" in law, will there already be a certain kind of power, and we just need to use it? Just a small comment: I saw a lot of discussions today, saying that there must be some norms, certain people to do it, official recognition, certain authority, and certain people willing to speak, but I My own opinion on "Echo" is: Although "Echo" has various problems, why am I still willing to write manuscripts, and I am willing to subscribe for each issue at my own expense? I think it is precisely because there is no authoritative person to make decisions. If you don’t like it, you can scold the editor—for example, I often scold my editor-in-chief for why I am changing my works all day long. I think this is a very good progress. Everyone can work hard for the things they love and shine, and our light and heat can surge into a sea of stars, and this sea of stars can shake the world.

 

Condewei: Okay, thank you. Then I think the last one should be Xing Ying?

 

Xing Ying: Just now I heard that everyone shared so much, and I also feel that I have benefited a lot, but there are two points I want to share: the lady just mentioned liberalism, or aesthetics, etc., reminds me of us and other Cantonese speakers. When the creators discuss, I feel that sometimes we go into a rut and over-discriminate between "what is Cantonese", "what is written language", and "what is impure Cantonese". I have a friend who translated "The Little Prince". I believe everyone has seen it. When we decided on the title of the book, we had a discussion: Should it be called "The Little Prince" or "The Prince?" "Prince Boy" seems to be closer to Cantonese, but everyone knows the answer. However, at the level of creation, sometimes it is easy to fall into a similar trap. For example, Ms. Zheng just mentioned Cai Yuanpei’s collection of poems. I don’t know why there are no Cantonese poems. After listening to it, I was also shocked. question, or a question from the Cantonese perspective? If it is because of the Cantonese problem, in fact, it also echoed that maybe we still need to continue to work hard. For example, if it is the same collection of poems, if it is also "offending the above", a hundred years ago there was a poet named Liao Entao who was even more "offending the above". The words in Chinese and the words in Cantonese, this collection of poems can only be named "Xi Xiao Ji" in the end, which means that it cannot be considered elegant. The person who sang with him was Hu Hanwen, a veteran of the Kuomintang, and the last anthology of Wuhan Wen did not include these poems. In the face of the traditional mentality of "no words, no action" deeply rooted in the tradition, we must continue to work hard. I have just listened to Ms. Deng's thought-provoking speech, and I have the above small additions.

 

Kong Dewei: Okay, thank you all, then we are here today, thank you for your participation.

Note:

1. Pronounced in Cantonese.

2. From the old man (Huang Boyao), "Qu-ben novels and vernacular novels are suitable for ordinary society".
3. From a clumsy rehearsal, "The Prostitute".
4. For example, Yaogong (Huang Boyao), "Official Sea's Sad Autumn"
5. From Guangzhai, "Regard to Overseas Chinese in Other Places".

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